baytownbert

Folks, I had a wonderful time at McKinney Falls State park, but this is an issue that needs to be addressed - burn bans and how they kill camping and family picnicking in State parks.

I hope the forum Admin doesn't boot me for addressing this issue and I fully understand burn bans and the need for them. I'm taking this issue to the State Government and it concerns all the state parks, not just this one.

Read the blog and then watch the 2 videos. If you have a youtube account, vote and make comments.

McKinney Falls State Park Burn Ban Outrage

- -- --Baytown Bert's Blog-- -- - --The way I see it--: Texas State Burn Bans Ruin Camping!

YouTube - McKinney Falls State Park Burn Ban Outrage

YouTube - McKinney Falls State Park Burn Ban 2

rockhill

To be sure a campfire adds to the enjoyment of camping. Can the experience be wonderful with out one? Sure it can be and is quite often.

I for one do not want a park ranger, or perhaps one of the subordinates, overriding the decision of the county fire marshal. Could a fire been safely enjoyed? You bet, even with out the damp conditions. Unfortunately rules/laws/guidelines are enacted due to the negligence of the few, thus affecting the many.

We have all witnessed the careless camper and perhaps even been guilty ourselves sometimes. With the tinderbox dry conditions over most of Texas, recent rain not withstanding, continuing burn bans are a needed restiction. And that ban should apply to the state parks. The parks lure 'city folks' outside as they should. But a vast majority of these people have no concept how quickly a small fire can spread and wreak major destruction.

I know we disagree on some points and my goal is/was not to change any ones opinion or view. It was as a user of our parks, and a rural landowner, to support those decisions made to ban outdoor fires.

JohnK

Great blog Bert, and I'm very sorry the unthinking bureaucrats put a damper on your camping! Frankly, I'm amazed it happened! I camped at Inks and Colorado Bend in October, and Pedernales Falls the last weekend of January, all under county burn bans, but fires in fire rings, with an adult in attendance and water readily accessable, were permitted. I really thought you'd be fine after all that rain. I'm wondering if for some reason Texas Parks & Wildlife made a decision to consider contained fires subject to county burn bans. You alluded to some event at Pedernales Falls. Was this a real event, or a hypothetical scenario?

Anyway, I agree with you that park officials should be able to make the call, especially in situations, such as you encountered when everything was soaked. Perhaps the park management should be able to at least pick up the phone and call whoever has authority to request a waiver for a few days during wet conditions.

I think the idea of having fire safety training at the parks is outstanding. In fact, since so much of Texas is in draught conditions, perhaps they could have a fire safety certification card, similar to a CPR/BLS (cardiopulmonary resuscitation/basic life support) card, issued by Texas Parks and Wildlife to those who complete a free, fire safety course, that would be a prerequisite for campers camping in draught conditions to have appropriate (contained) fires. In addition to such a program, I agree with you wholeheartedly that park rangers/attendants should patrol the parks in the evenings, checking out fires to insure that safety measures are being properly implemented.

More power to ya' Bert! I hope someone who can make a difference listens!

With all that said, I will say I have done a fair amount of camping in conditions that I wouldn't have even considered building a fire, i.e., in the backcountry of the Guadalupe Mountains, and I loved every minute of it. It's all dependent upon your mindset. It is entirely possible to have an utterly fantastic camping experience without a campfire, if you go into such an event knowing that it's just not in the cards.

Happy camping!

JohnK

P.S.: I don't think you have to worry about Shannon kicking you off the list for expressing your opinion about something like this. If anything, I think she supports such exchange of ideas. It's folks who are just here to hawk their wares that don't last very long.

Shannon

I have never, and will never, "boot" or ban anyone for expressing their opinions. In fact, a review of all the accounts we've banned over the years shows the only people who need to fear banning on WildTexas.com are blatant spammers, especially those with no regard to the family-oriented nature of our website (in other words, porn sites and other sites promoting illegal activity, such as drug use or illegal pharmaceutical sales sites operated outside U.S. jurisdiction.)

I can't remember the last time I've had to give anyone a warning, much less considered banning them, for expressing their opinions. I'm as opinionated as they come and I welcome the discourse.

That said, I think there's more to a great camping experience than a ground fire. I have friends who brought a wood grill and had a roaring, wonderful fire in it with no issues from rangers and much envy from their fellow campers. Camping is, in part, about making do with what Mother Nature and other forces at play throw at us, no? Burn bans are meant to protect the very parklands we all so enjoy. For every responsible camper who could have a ground fire with no issue, all it takes is one numbskull to literally put our parklands up in smoke. It's just one of those inconveniences we take with all the GOOD that is a State Park visit. I'm sorry for your issues and you have every right to share your take on the situation. And you're quite welcome here on Wild Texas.

I do feel your frustration since it was raining/wet, but if you've been camping as long as I think you probably have, you know no state agency reactions quickly. It's the same reason we can have a huge downpour and yet still have water usage restrictions in place here in San Antonio (whose primary source for municipal/public water is the Edwards Underground Aquifer.)

PS: It's not as fun or relaxing, but you can roast all sorts of things over a burning camp stove. Necessity is the mother of invention.

May all your camping adventures be terrific ones from here on out!

PPS: I love the videos. Justin and I always intended to post more videos of our hikes but never got around to it and now with our two-year-old we'll need to get back into doing that. She LOVES the outdoors and is very observant when it comes to spotting wildlife.

__________________
- Shannon Moore
Your Host @ WildTexas.com

Purchases in the Wild Texas Gear Shop support our continued operation. Thank you!

srds

I agree it is nice to have a good fire to make a great camping trip,we have only been able to have charcoal in the fire ring last 2 trips.We leave in 4 days for Garner and I am still taking firewood just in case.

srds
Have Fun

__________________
To Camp or Not to Camp -Lets go Camping- Have Fun

baytownbert

Wonderful comments by all and it's this educated feedback, which is very important to discussing an issue with any clarity.

Can a person camp without a campfire? Sure. Can a family still have fun camping without a campfire? We did. I am simply writing about the burn ban and the effect it had on the general population using one of our State parks.

My issue is simple. If there is a chance a campfire will get out of control from one of these fire rings - then engineering controls need to be amended, so it can't happen. Banning campfires and charcoal from picnic braziers is not the answer. Banning fire period literally caused MFSP to be basically empty during Spring Break and the sign at the front gate said "No occupancy".

The reason for this was all the sites were booked and paid for in advance, but the burn ban caused many to reconsider. I do not believe it was the rain, as it came and went both days with plenty of sunshine afterward and Saturday was dry and cool - perfect weather.

As far as "Engineering controls" go, a few issues that could be covered are this:

1. Short class at the station the first night you camp
2. Water hoses at the spigots
3. Possibly a CO2 fire extinguisher at the site.
4. Revised Fire ring with the predominant wind sides blocked (2).
5. Online course of campfire/cooking for a safe TX-issued fire card
6. Handouts at the gate explaining safe fire practices.
7. Random oversight by park personnel/volunteers for unsafe fire situations

Now I also understand that seasoned hikers/backpackers/campers have a more educated view of setting camp and camp-discipline, but most people who use the screened-shelters and improved sites (water/elect) want a campfire and many of us who camp often do too.

My beef is simply that the State needs to improve rather than remove. I asked about the fire ban being lifted and found out that it was imposed on the previous Tuesday. Tuesday? Why not Thursday? Why did it have to wait until the next Tuesday before it was considered again?

One Ranger said they thought the ban was on because of an "incident at Pedernales Falls SP", but they were not sure.

Another issue, which I did not bring up in my Blog and it is nothing more than a conundrum, was the firewood issue for the environments sake and I understand this, you are not allowed to pick-up any wood of any kind from the surrounding area and burn it. Fine.

You have 2 options. Bring your own wood or purchase wood at the gate. I brought in about 500 pounds of hardwood in my little car, which basically took up the whole back, because according to the official website Thursday morning, there was NO burn ban in Travis County and rain was predicted.

When I told the Ranger I was going to leave the wood for the next camper, they replied that it would be removed, as they sold firewood. When I observed the park staff removing a tree that was damaged, I asked if the wood could be made available for campers and they said "No", that would involve the forestry service, so they would use it for personal fires. (At no time did I have a beef with Park staff, in fact I talked with a Ranger for 15 minutes and we reviewed one of the videos).

So, the park sells wood and anything left is removed. However, since the burn bans, there has been little wood purchased, robbing the State Park of funds - but - since folks are losing their deposit for reserved campsites, they are still making some money. Then there's the fact that picnickers are not coming into the park to cook on the many empty charcoal braziers, the park once again is losing money and all of this is due to the burn ban.

Improve – not remove.

Shannon

Sadly I think it's a case of it being FAR easier and less costly to simply ban or extend a ban than it is to do one, much less all, of the suggestions you offer here. They're all with merit, but as an avid park user you're probably also aware of how tightly our Texas State Parks are operating in terms of budget constraints. A course, even administered online, would cost more than simply banning fires outright at certain times/conditions.

Like it or not, especially in "this economy" (no matter how much I cringe at hearing it used as an excuse for everything), it's easier to ban something outright than it is to allow it and have additional enforcement or education required to do so safely.

It's also a bit of a logical leap on your part that people are not coming to the parks due strictly to the burn ban in place. That would take some analysis of the average park visitation from month to month prior to and after the burn ban, as well as comparing it to season's past which may or may not have had a burn ban in place. I've had to cancel reservations before, and it's never ever been because of a burn ban. And I like a campfire as much as the next gal, but I cook over a camp stove so it's an aesthetic desire not one of "well, I can't cook/eat, so I can't visit/stay the night."

__________________
- Shannon Moore
Your Host @ WildTexas.com

Purchases in the Wild Texas Gear Shop support our continued operation. Thank you!

baytownbert

Of course I could toss in the towel and think the State and county will take the easiest route and just forget it, but it is up to us to demand they do otherwise.

Each park government whether State, county or city should keep in mind that parks are provided to promote the welfare of their populace and they are obligated to maintain this for them. We are guaranteed by our constitution a fair and equitable government along with the pursuit of individual happiness.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness”.

Texas parks and Wildlife Mission Statement poses: To manage and conserve the natural and cultural resources of Texas and to provide hunting, fishing and outdoor recreation opportunities for the use and enjoyment of present and future generations.

I am simply contending that campfires and charcoal fires are part of this “outdoor recreation opportunities for the use and enjoyment” and want them to facilitate it…and others who feel the same way can join me in attempting to make a change – a reasonable one.

It is also a logical step on my part to make the assumption that people are not coming to their reserved campsite because of a fire ban if that was only an assumption, but it’s not. I was told by a Ranger when fire bans are placed, attendance falls off. When I called for reservations, the person who took it told me the same thing, that they have cancellations and possibly openings after a fire ban is placed, so call back to see if there are openings. This was when I tried to book at Pedernales Falls SP for early April.

Over-regulation and restriction of public resources has got to be called back and we folks who hunt, camp and hike should be very careful what we decide is okay. If Texas had millions of acres of public land, BLM land and national forest, easily accessible, then it would be no big deal what the authorities decide happens inside a state park, but that is not the case. We are a State with lots of private property, thus you have private parks and many hunting leases.

I bet “The Tedster” cooks meat on an open fire on his private land, regardless of what the County Commissioner decides and I wish I could get him on my side in this one. LOL

Anyway, thank you for your input and after all I wrote, you may be right. We’ll see.

Troop198

As a long time camper and scouter, tried to think how to weign in on this. If you think SP bans don't work out right, try taking scouts to a scout facility with a burn ban. YIKES but it happens just as described you check the county its fine you get there BAN.

The ranger at the scout camps only position (and I feel sorry for this guy as some weekends you're effecting 200 plus scouts with a ban) is that they are their to protect the park for now generations and future generations, and scouts are taught fire safety early on but he (the generic he) wants them and others to enjoy the park next time too. So despite nashing of teeth, no fire program and even warmth in the fall, the camping goes on.

Try to fight thru it just remember its better than sitting inside doing nothing kind of think of it as that trip where you forgot to bring the stove or the food (not me) and enjoy yourself, no one ever died wishing they spent more time at work. But many wish they could spend more time outside

baytownbert

Troop198: I think it's great that you would add your experience on this issue and I want to go on record as saying I'm determined over this, but not rabid. Everyone has an opinion in my book and as long as they attempt to be civil (LOL), it can be discussed in detail.

At the group camp near our screen shelter were a large group of visually challenged folks. It got down to 38 Saturday night and I watched as they walked with canes or were led by hand up to the bathroom. I thought they especially would have enjoyed a radiant campfire this past night.

I also don't think it is my way or the highway and realize the need of fire bans. I expect to get a whiplash, or even worse be totally ignored by officials, who will "for the good of everyone", make decisions FOR us., but one way or another the issue will be discussed and folks who may have never given it a thought, will think.

JohnK

The US Forest Service requires campfire permits when camping outside of developed campgrounds, i.e., where there are no fire rings, etc. The following is a link to get one such permit online, free of charge, after taking a ridiculously simple, four question quiz:

Campfire Permit Page - Sequoia National Forest and Giant Sequoia National Monument

In light of the fact that portions of Texas have been under draught conditions frequently during recent decades, and possibly will be even more so in future decades (if global warming/climate change trends continue), I think it would be a good thing for Texas Parks & Wildlife to implement a fire safety program, of some sort. The folks who use our parks range from the highly experienced and responsible to the brain dead, and as others have mentioned, it only takes one idiot to spoil everything for everyone.

Why not have an online fire safety/permit program? The page at the link above is perhaps a bit too succinct. I would expand it a bit, add a short video to drive home the importance of fire safety, i.e., illustrating the devestating impact of unplanned forest fires, and how long it takes such forests to recover, and also demonstrating simple, fire safety practices. I think the quiz could be a little more comprehensive, perhaps 10 - 15 questions, and then an annual permit issued. The parks could also have short, fire safety/permitting classes daily, say scheduled at 3:00 p.m., or some other time convenient to the rangers, for those who don't plan ahead and take the online course. This could even be done by setting up a TV/DVD player and have folks watch the video and take the quiz. Again, I would do this at a preset time of day so rangers aren't trying to deal with fire safety permits at crunch times (Friday evenings) when gobs of people are checking-in. Those who don't plan ahead, just don't get to have a fire on Friday evening. At least their permits would then be good for a year, once they do complete the training.

By having such a course required for fires, even in fire rings/BBQ pits, perhaps the bureaucrats would feel more comfortable giving local park officials authority to make decisions about whether or not to allow campfires in the face of burnbans. Yes this would require a little more work on the part of park personnel, but I think it would be worthwhile, and not that expensive. Like they do in national forests, they could impose hefty fines for violating the rules, which could defray the expense. They also could require a nominal fee for taking the onsite course, thereby encouraging folks to take the free online course.

Heck, if the powers-that-be would go for such a thing, I'd even be willing to help develop the course, though I suspect it would have more of an impact to have bonafide rangers in uniforms be the instructors in the video.

JohnK

baytownbert

JohnK: Count me in on your logic. Your approach seems so logical. The knee jerk reaction of so many of our Public service benefit overseers appears to be removal of the benefit, or muzzling it, instead of figuring out how to make it work.

The State could enlist the Boy Scouts to train campers (when they are in attendance) and this would have a dual role: Educate the campers and help Scouts prepare for merit badges.

baytownbert

I finally got the pages built for the McKinney Falls State Park camping/hiking trip! All comments are welcome and please rate and comment on the youtube videos.

McKinney Falls State Park March 26-29, 2009